Landships II

PDA · Legend

British in Gas Masks - Strelets

James H · Legend

I'm a little surprised to see that some are wearing bandoliers. Is that right?

I assume the stick grenade is a captured example.

PDA · Legend

James H wrote:
I assume the stick grenade is a captured example.

�As we all know that, contrary to Hollywood's notions, the stick grenade is not a German invention�(but, rather, a simultaneous invention) I thought it was one of those Hales bombs (or similar) you mentioned some time ago. Is it incorrect?

And there is a chap holding a rather long stick with a ball at the end. I assumed that as well as being unfinished and therefore subject to change that it was either a badly done swagger stick or a trench club (knobkerrie or shillelagh). I swayed toward the trench club idea.

The bandoliers I hadn't noticed becuase the shadows rather disrupt my view. But I will be explaining them as dismounted cavalry.

I still have a problem with Strelets' interpretation of the Lewis gun, though. And I will probably be excavating that figure and re-arming him.

-- Edited by PDA on Tuesday 28th of September 2010 12:05:13 PM

-- Edited by PDA on Tuesday 28th of September 2010 12:56:29 PM

James H · Legend

I'm sure the Hales hand grenade (as opposed to the rifle grenade) had been given up as a bad job long before this stage of the War - 1915, if memory serves. And it was much longer and thinner than the Steilgranate. The thing the other bloke is carrying does seem to be a trench club.

What disturbs me about the bandoliers is that they're being worn with the pouches across the men's backs. Would that have happened? I appreciate that the respirator would have obstructed access to the pouches, but wearing them as shown here doesn't seem to be the answer. I could be wrong.

Fiddling with the pics in Picture Manager or somesuch gives you a better view. Unfortunately, it also enables you to see that the infantry-style pouches are all over the shop.

And the Lewis is too stubby. But at least he's not firing it from the hip.

-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 28th of September 2010 01:06:24 PM

Rob · Legend

How strange. Yes, it's a cavalry bandolier, but from what I know all cavalrymen that were dismounted and saw service in the trenches were issued with the infantry webbing. As for it being worn on the back - that is wrong, there was a 9 pouch version which if worn would mean four of the pouches would be on your back, but that was for horses!

The men are wearing the late-summer 1916 gas masks onwards (Small Box Respirator), the grenade definitely looks like a German one, if it's meant to be the early war No 1 or No 2 it's out of date by over a year. I'm not sure why they're depicted in greatcoats either, they very rarely went into action wearing them, especially late war, as bad weather doesn't lend itself well to offensives, ie the latter parts of 3rd Ypres!

Ian P · Major

I thought they were awful when I first saw them, but after looking at them, I quite like them now. They have a bit of character about them, and the greatcoats/gasmask combination is interesting.

I'll probably get a box.

James H · Legend

A parallel discussion is taking place on the Strelets Forum.

It now appears that a 9-pouch bandolier was issued, and not for horses. I don't know what to make of this.

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/pics/1903_bandoliers.html

-- Edited by James H on Wednesday 29th of September 2010 11:20:54 PM

PDA · Legend

I have been following the discussions avidly.

There do seem to be accuracy problems. However, I still like the look of these figures. Whether or not greatcoats were worn in the attack, I think the bulky look that a person wearing a greatcoat has, suits Strelets' style, and so modelling them with the coats on was a good decision from a design or aesthetic�point of view (see PSR's comments regarding Strelets Russian 'summer' infantry and 'winter' infantry).

Something else that occurs to me is; it�may be easier to trim off the pouches if you don't want them, than to add them if you do. A bit like having bayonets in the scabbard and fixed to the rifle.

And, just as a note, these are unfinished masters so may change substantially.

Rectalgia · Legend

James, FWIW, re-enactors certainly use 9 pouch bandoliers for Australian Light Horse, distinguishing them from the 5 pouch as "mounted" and "unmounted" respectively. See http://www.lawranceordnance.com/khaki_and_green/equipment_1903/index.php. They were mounted infantry of course, who sometimes forgot to dismount, but that was only in the Middle East.

As far as the ALH goes, I believe they officially switched to P1908 webbing when they were in the Western Front (and anyway there were problems with leather equipment in the wet, supposedly) but I suspect any soldier who could get his hands on a 90 or 100 round bandolier would not be easily parted from it, regardless. They're like that.

Talking of P1908 webbing, I see Lawrence Ordnance has a period Australian reprint of the British War Office manual on that equipment at http://www.lawranceordnance.com/information/manuals/equipment/we08.pdf. Repro P1908 items shown in some detail at http://www.lawranceordnance.com/khaki_and_green/equipment_1908/index.php. The range looks to quite complete, including some of the "overlooked" items like wire-cutter pouches and cup (grenade) projector pouches - though those must have been reasonably common in real life. But I digress.

James H · Legend

Now, Stephen. I think some facial egg might be in prospect, and I accept my share of it.

I now recall the ALH pattern, but its significance had escaped me. ANZAC had a leather version of the 1908 Infantry pattern (the 1915) but, as you say, exchanged it when possible for the canvas type.

As for bandoliers, I've found the following, rather unsettling references:

World War One British Army (Stephen Bull): "The standard personal equipment of the mounted troops in 1914 was the Pattern 1903 bandoleer (sic). First models . . . apparently had 5 pouches with 10 rounds in each, but later an extra 4 pouches were added, bringing the ammunition capacity up to a more respectable 90 rounds."

World War One Sourcebook (Philip Haythornthwaite): "Cavalry wore . . . 1903-pattern leather equipment, including a 90-round bandolier over the left shoulder."

Bull and Mike Chappell (The British Soldier in the 20th Century, Service Dress 1902-1940) state that the bandolier was orignally also issued to infantry, and I've seen a photo of British troops at Gallipoli wearing bandoliers in addition to (I think) the 1908.

Be that as it may, I still think the Strelets figures are pushing it.

Rectalgia · Legend

James H wrote:
Be that as it may, I still think the Strelets figures are pushing it.

You may be right James, in such vast panoramas as were the battlefronts anything is possible - but some things seem more reasonable than others.� The actual battles were seldom seen so closely by photographers and artists, I suspect we lack much of the realism of those events - but we can only go by the available evidence (and I think few would be better than yourself in assembling that evidence).

Blow me down, I've even come across evidence for "modern" bandoliers in Canadian service, early in WW1 - http://www.kaisersbunker.com/cef/equipment/cefe04.htm.� I've even seen the same (cotton) pattern bandoliers in Australian service (cadets) in the early 1960s.� It seems a similar pattern may have been used for 7.62 ammo even after that (no personal experience with that, we simply carried extra loaded magazines when required, those loaded from boxed loose rounds).

Anyway, in the case of .303 and the cotton bandoliers, the ammo was pre-packed, 2 x 5-round chargers per pocket x 5 pockets per bandolier and (I think) 4 bandoliers per case (a small metal box).� I'm quite hazy about "bulk" ammunition issues in WW1 but I certainly never envisioned the cotton bandoliers (even in the 50s-60s we were trained to load the chargers ourselves with loose rounds).� Those bandoliers were surely intended to be unpacked into battle-order webbing pouches but equally their design allowed them to be worn as bandoliers in their own right, in a pinch.

Steve

�

Rob · Legend

.303 ammunition was issued, as Steve mentions, in the cotton bandoliers and then removed from them and put in pouches, however could be worn on their own right, and in an attack an infantryman would wear two bandoliers (one slung over each shoulder in a cross pattern across the front, ie a bandolier slung on the left would have the strap on the right shoulder and vice versa). The small metal box wasn't used in WW1, it was issued in a 1000 round ammunition box made out of wood with a metal foil liner to protect against fire, i've got a couple of reproduction ones

Rectalgia · Legend

Ah, thanks Rob.

Steve