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Post Info TOPIC: The Landships of Lincoln, 2nd Edition - Treat With Caution.
James H


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The Landships of Lincoln, 2nd Edition - Treat With Caution.
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Have just read the updated edition of this book.

First, the good news:

The appendix includes an A5 page of small but excellent drawings of machines built by Fosters, from the traction engine to the Medium Mk C, including the Big Wheel, Foster-Daimler, Trench Crosser, Little Willie, Flying Elephant, and Mk IV Tadpole, all to the same scale. There are also A5 drawings of a variety of vehicles, to different scales but all accompanied by a helpful scale silhouette of W. Tritton. (Mk C, Mk IX, Mk IV, A7V, Mk C, 75HP Holt, Tadpole, and so on, including the Ruston and Proctor Stores Roller) Also quite a few photographs I hadn't seen before, including a Mk IV Tadpole Female hauling a 60pdr on a sled which is, in turn, towing its caisson, and one of a front view of the Tritton Chased with turret.

The first half covers the genesis of the Tank, with which we're familiar, and the second includes quite a lot of local history (accounts by people who worked at Foster's, local men who served in the Tanks, etc).

Now the bad news:

I'm afraid it's rather badly written and appallingly punctuated. The apostrophe makes few appearances, most often incorrectly, in "it's". There are lots of typos and/or misspellings. More to the point, it's rather error-strewn and historically quite dodgy.  (Some small examples: the Western Front ran to the Italian Alps; Mephisto is in Canberra; the gun from Schnuck is in London; Wells wrote about the Land Ironclads "early in the Boar [sic] War"; a photo of Hornsby's Rochet-Schnider [sic] is actually the Mercedes; he doesn't know that the U.S. Caterpillar mock-up was a film prop; and so it goes on. There is stuff like that all over the place, which tends to undermine confidence)

Chapter IV, entitled "Heavy Tanks", gets involved with the L/C ratio and attempts to explain the evolution of the Mk V, V*, and V**, but, I think I'm right in saying, makes a major hash of it, which is worrying.

Some interesting facts that aren't found elsewhere do emerge, but the overall level of accuracy seriously eroded my trust.

I wouldn't recommend this book as a starting point. Probably better to do a lot of background reading elsewhere and use that to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Feel free to argue.

The Landships of Lincoln, Second Edition by Richard Pullen. ISBN:9781873257791 Pub: TUCANN http://www.tucann.co.uk/books.aspx



-- Edited by James H on Saturday 21st of April 2012 04:39:26 PM

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TinCanTadpole


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The "Boar War"? That one's been done before, but is still worth a giggle. Use of apostrophe's (sic) is a very common problem these days. Many don't seem to know that you don't use it for plurals (my mistake above is deliberate).

If the pictures are good though, and it doesn't cost too much (Barbarossa books seems to have it for £15, though I didn't actually go on the site), it may still be worthwhile.

"A picture is worth a thousand words", so they say; a good pic, perhaps so.

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Gwyn Evans


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I agree with James' assessment, though for me the local knowledge of Lincoln and the accounts of factory workers, which you won't find elsewhere, was a very major plus and made the book worth having for that alone. There are some new photos in it, for example three of 2308 on pages 62/63. But spoiling this is the claim that this tank was lost during the Battle of Cambrai when actually it was ditched and burnt out on 31 July 1917. And the claim that Flirt II was recovered by the British after Cambrai (page 135) is untrue.

When new the paper was also very smelly. Mercifully this has now worn off!

Gwyn

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Rectalgia


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Gwyn Evans wrote:

... When new the paper was also very smelly. Mercifully this has now worn off!

Gwyn

Ah, I've noticed that in some other books, particularly those from a certain subcontinent and former realm of the Empire which shall remain nameless but which is notably "cost effective" in the area of publishing.  Formaldehyde most likely, I now find.  Not supposed to happen!



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James H


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TCT - Mr. P avoids apostrophe problems by hardly using any in the entire book, but always writes "it's" when he means "its". I don't know how it was allowed to go to press.

Anyway, this might interest Gwyn, in particular. The cover photo below is rather intriguing. I wonder if Gwyn can ident the Tank.

Details that strike me:

The troops appear to be lining up to climb onto the Tank, and those on top trying to find somewhere to sit.

Most are wearing the '08 webbing, and a surprisingly large number have the cap stiffeners in place.

On the hull there is what looks like a letter G enclosing either the number 11 or a Roman II, just behind the recognition stripes.

Can't make out the cap badges or shoulder flashes.

There are, I think, three men in the pic who are definitely Tankers. The chap in the right foreground might be a fourth. He's wearing what looks like the 1917 soft cap and the 1914 snake belt, with no puttees, all of which makes sense. Something rather unsoldierly seems to be going on with the rifle at his side. And it could just be his physiognomy, but he looks as if he might be oriental, maybe Japanese.

Finally, it looks as if the 6 pdr is missing, and the shield damaged.

What; where; when; why?

BTW, Stephen: the book is printed in rural Lincolnshire, and it might have been at muckspreading time. It tends to linger.



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Rob


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That picture is very unusual - starting with the chap in the foreground, yes very oriental looking - the pose of the rifle is very strange, possibly Chinese Labour Corps dressed up for the occasion? At a struggle to think of what unit he could be. The stiff caps which several definitely appear to be wearing are unusual for so late in the war. My 'hunch' would be to say that they were making a film

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TinCanTadpole


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James, I think your letter G is just a circle with a dirty bit on the right, and as for the 6pdr, there's something light coloured at the bottom of the opening in the shield; either someone is inside the tank and sticking his bare arm through the opening, or - perhaps more likely - the 6pdr is in place, but at maximum depression and the pale bit is just the light striking the barrel and creating a lighter shade similar to that of the sponson side.
I have noticed in many pics that it's common for 6pdrs to droop like this.

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James H


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A long shot, but is it this? If so, it's 2365, with Canadians on board. Some of the officers look the part, and a couple of shoulder flashes and a similar marking on the hull are visible.



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Yep, I think you've got it James; if you look at the secondary gear bearing caps on the side, you'll see a matching stain dribbling down from the rearmost cap in both pics.

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James H


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Ta, TCT. In which case, and you might not believe this, there is a possible explanation for the Asiatic-looking gent.

He's got a rifle, or is close to one, and his badges don't appear to be Tank Corps, so he could be part of the infantry unit. From what detail I can make out, his badges look like CEF.

Which might mean that he's an aboriginal Canadian of some kind. Plenty joined up. His unorthodox outfit might be explained by the fact that they were often scouts or snipers.

http://www.vcn.bc.ca/~jeffrey1/tribute.htm 

http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/comment/nativee.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_I#Participation

Anyone know what mob is on the Tank?



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Rectalgia


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James H wrote:
...

Which might mean that he's an aboriginal Canadian of some kind. Plenty joined up. His unorthodox outfit might be explained by the fact that they were often scouts or snipers.

Seems very feasible - his rifle could be a MkIII/III* Ross then, just looking at the magazine.  Snipers may have retained those after the Canadians generally converted to the MkIII* Lee Enfield.  I seem to have heard that somewhere? Ah yes, our usual font of knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_rifle.  Usually fitted with telescopic sights in that service but I've seen it stated that some snipers (particularly experienced shooters pre-war from the Dominions) felt that was "cheating" - or simply couldn't be bothered changing what already worked for them.  Apparently other allied forces used that rifle for sniping too.



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Gwyn Evans


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Not much I can add to the discussion about the tank on the cover. It is 2365 and the two pictures posted are the only ones I have of it. There really is a G11 (G with the number 'inside' the letter) marked in black on the hull side. It would seem that all 7th Battalion Mark IVs were marked in this way in 1918, a much less conspicuous crew number marking than that employed by other Tank Corps units at the same time. I think that says something about the threat from German anti-tank units perceived by the officers of the 7th. Anyway it can be seen on some of the Mark IV presentation tanks donated to, or left in, French towns after the war.  As an example here's two photos of 2596 at St Souplet.  You need to look closely.

Gwyn



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Gwyn Evans


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On aboriginal snipers, did I imagine it or did one of Ian Hislop's programmes about the Great War cover the story of an Inuit sniper?

Gwyn

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James H


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Gwyn Evans wrote:

On aboriginal snipers, did I imagine it or did one of Ian Hislop's programmes about the Great War cover the story of an Inuit sniper?

Gwyn

So it did. This is the chap http://www.calgarysun.com/news/memorial/2009/07/21/10213616.html but he doesn't look as if he's our bloke.



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Morgoth


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I hoped it's going to be about American Civil War landships.

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