Landships II

As noted in another thread there isn't any single source of information on these guns.

Rather than try to accumulate all the information on these guns and probably get it wrong in various ways I thought we could try a colaborative

project. If you know anything about the 75mm Krupp guns please contribute - anything will help - images, refs, etc.

Once we have a reasonable amount of info I'll wrangle it into an article for Landships II.

Regards,

Chalrie

Here's a 1909 Krupp gun in Argentina. I have seen several others in parks or guarding the entrance to military buildings. This one, believe it or not, is in the entrance courtyard of a confectionery factory! As you can see, all the engraved legends are translated to Spanish.

Thanks for the contribution

Notice the interrupted screw breech - not what one would expect on a Krupp gun.

I've read that Argentina held field gun evaluation trials before they ordered the Krupp gun. I suspect the Argentine Army requested that Krupp should

modify the standard 75mm. There is a Krupp patent for an interrupted screw breech dating from about 1905 which looks like this breech. The 75mm Krupp

Gebrigskanone M1908 (the one for the Japanese) seems to have used the same breech design.

It would be nice to know how many guns Argentina purchased and how long they were in service. I have a recollection that some of the 75mm Krupp guns

were reworked as a close support gun in the 40s(?)

Regards,

Charlie 

Thanks - that's great info.

I've been doing a bit of digging - I had a vague memory the Krupp guns were recycled as a close support gun.

Memory didn't fail me: Canon de Infanteria C.75mm "Matorras" - 1945 - designed by Lt. Col. Matorras - built from shortened Krupp barrels with a

locally developed carriage which seems to be influenced by the WW2 German IG 18. The Krupp breech block was replaced with a Maxim-Nodernfeldt type which

according to one website had a quicker action than the Krupp breech. The gun served in the Argentine Army into the 50s.

Barrel length (without muzzle brake) - 1000mm (L/13)

Weight in battery - 465 kg

Projectile weight - 6.3 kg

Propellant weight - (min) 60gm, (max) 130gm

Muzzle Velocity - 210 m/sec

Max. Range - 3750 m (min), 5200m (max)

Websites:

http://www.aacvm.com.ar/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=35&pos=8

http://www.taringa.net/posts/hazlo-tu-mismo/11225922/Armas-Argentinas_-Canon-de-infanteria-Matorras-_75mm_.html

In summer 1903 Holland ordered 28  six-guns field batteries and 2 six-guns horse of Krupp M. 03

Calibre: 75mm L/30

Lenght of the barrel: 2250 mm

Barrel grooves: 28 - depth - 0.75 mm, wdth - 5.92 mm

Weight of the barrel: 350 kg

Weight of the breech-block: 28 kg

Weight of the carriage: 640 kg

Weight in action: 990 kg

Weight of the limber: 777 kg (428 kg empty)

Weight in marching order : 1767 kg

Weight of the wagon-body: 1070 kg (546 kg empty)

Weight of the ammunition wagon : 1847 kg (974 kg empty)

Shield thickness : 4 mm

Height of the line of fire : 990 mm

Weight of the cartridge: 1.2 kg - charge: 440 g (7.725 kg shelled)

Weight of the shell: 6 kg - charge: 190 g - Percussion fuze: 130 g

Weight of the shrapnel: 6 kg -  270 lead bullets x 11 g - charge: 75 g - T & P fuze: 290 g

Muzzle velocity: 500 m/s

Max. range: 5600 m (with time fuze)

Recoil: 1.28 m

Elevation: + 16° / - 8°

Traverse: 3° 30'

Track: 1.48 m

Transport: drawn by 6 horses

Ammunition: limber - 36 shrapnel and 4 H.E. shells; wagon body - 48 shrapnel and 16 H.E. shell

Remarks: recoil system with hydraulic buffer and springs, wedge breech mechanism, traverse on pivot.
It was equipped with telescopic sight, but not fitted for an independent line of sight. It was equipped with mechanical fuze-setter.

In 1900 Sweden ordered some horse batteries of Krupp M. 00

Calibre: 75mm L/30

Lenght of the barrel: 2250 mm

Weight of the barrel: 350 kg

Weight of the carriage: 537 kg

Weight in action: 887 kg

Weight of the limber: 713 kg

Weight in marching order : 1600 kg

Weight of the ammunition wagon : 1600 kg

Shield thickness : no shield

Height of the line of fire : 970 mm

Weight of the cartridge: 1.2 kg - charge: 600 g (8.3 kg shelled)

Weight of the shrapnel: 6 kg -  295 lead bullets x 11 g

Muzzle velocity: 500 m/s

Max. range:

Elevation: + 18° / - 8°

Traverse: 3°

Transport: drawn by 6 horses

Ammunition: limber - 40 rounds; wagon body - 92 rounds

Remarks: field gun à tir accéléré equipped with spring-spade to reduce the recoil. The gun had no shield and the limber was armoured.

Another secondary user - Finland.

Finland acquired the first 12 guns already just before Winter War in October of 1939. Finland purchased another 12 guns during the war from Sweden. Also Swedish volunteer unit SFK (whose weaponry was financed with donations gathered in Sweden for Finland) arrived with 12 guns. When Sweden loaned further 24 guns to Finland during Winter War the total number of these guns used in Winter War reached 60. 24 guns were returned to Sweden and the remaining guns were used early in the Continuation War - survivors were used as coastal defence guns in 2-gun batteries until the end of WW2.

(http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY3.htm)

The images of a surviving M02 at the Tykistömuseo

Regards,

Charlie

In 1902 Denmark bought 128 Krupp M. 02

Calibre: 75mm L/30

Lenght of the barrel: 2250 mm

Number of barrel grooves: 28

Weight of the barrel: 327 kg

Weight of the carriage: 708 kg

Weight in action: 1035 kg

Weigfht of the limber: 900 kg

Weight in marching order: 1935 kg

Weight of the ammunition body: 1150 kg

Weight of the ammunition wagon : 2050 kg

Weight of the observation ladder: 22 kg

Height of the observation ladder: 3 m

Shield thickness: 6 mm

Weight of the cartridge: 1.45 kg - charge: 600 g (shelled 8.7 kg)

Weight of the shrapnel: 6.75 kg -  295 bullets x 11 g

Muzzle velocity: 500 m/s

Max. range: 6000 m

Recoil: 1.37 m

Elevation: + 15° / - 9°

Traverse: 3° 3'

Track: 1.5 m

Transport: drawn by 6 horses

Ammunition: gun limber - 44 rounds; ammunition limber - 48 - ammunition body - 72 rounds

Remarks: recoil system with hydraulic buffer and springs, wedge breech mechanism, traverse on pivot.
It was equipped with dial sight, but not fitted for an independent line of sight. A pyramidal observation ladder could be on the ammunition wagon.

Great start on the 75mm Krupp gun.

We've only got Sweden, Switzerland, Rumania, Belgium, Italy, Japan, Bulgaria, Brazil and the secondary users like Israel and Peru to go.

Regards,

Charlie

AFIK Bulgaria was a secondary user of 75mm Krupp field guns.

In 1912-13 the Bulgarian Army captured 144 field Krupp guns during the Balkan War.

After the war they were introduced into the Army. It seems that in 1914 106 - 75mm Krupp ex-Turkish field guns of various patterns were available, but before the entry of Bulgaria in WW1 (October 1915) some other guns had been repaired and sent to the troops.

In 1915 Bulgaria bought 18 - 75mm "Brazilian" guns.

Deatails at: www.bulgarianartillery.it

The pictures of the "Matorras" Krupp were taken on the Museo de Armas de la Nación, a place worth a long visit if anyone visits Buenos Aires. There are lots of WW1 related weapons, and of course, of other periods as well. It's one of the greatest small museums that remains vrtually unknown except for the enthusiasts.

This is interesting - a couple of images from the Vickers image archive. The gun is a 75mm Krupp M05+ - slide breech, etc.

I haven't seen the traversing platform before - anyone know if it was ever used. A similar design was standard on the British WW2 25 Pounder.

Regards,

Charlie

I think that an article collegcting all the infos available about 75mm export guns would be very usefull. If anybody wants to try to make it, he can use all the material I posted without any problem. I have data also for Chile and Japan and, maybe, for other lesser countries (China?, I should check). I'll add them as soon as possible.

BTW. I could try to do the same thing about 75mm Krupp mountain guns.

Best,

Marco

China was also a 75mm Krupp user - found this by Google search.

"China seems to have acquired several batteries of these guns prior to the 1911 Revolution. Chinese guns seem to have been designated the M-1903/06 field gun. It has been reported in Early 1900s Chinese Ammunition Manufacture that direct copies of these field guns were produced at both the Hanyang Arsenal and Jiang Nan Manufacturing Bureau in Shanghai as the L/29 field gun.

*75mm: Italian Cannone da 75/27 modello 1906. China is reported to have acquired an unknown quantity of these field guns after the First World War to supplement their standard Krupp M-1903/06 field guns. The Cannone da 75/27 was an Italian licensed copy of the original Krupp commercial design built by Ansaldo and Armstrong Pozzuoli. The origin of the Chinese guns is unclear, but some of them may have been acquired as surplus from Poland as well as from Italy directly.

75mm: Japanese Type 38 and Type 38 Improved (Model of 1905) field guns. This was a Japanese licensed production version of the Krupp commercial field gun listed above, and was the most important Japanese field gun until the appearance of the Schneider designed Type 90 (Model of 1930) field gun during the early 1930s. Many of these weapons were captured during the Sino-Japanese War and employed against their former owners or were subsequently acquired from abandoned stocks after 1945 and used during the Civil War."

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=162448 

Regards,

Charlie

In 1902 Denmark ordered 128 M1902 75mm Krupp guns. These remained in service until WW2, in 1937 8 of 11 field artillery battalions were equipped with the Krupp gun (96 guns).

The only modification which seems to have been made to these guns was adding a rubber tire to the wooden wheels to make the gun more suitable for vehicle towing.

Regards,

Charlie

Continuing the Swedish improvements to the 75mm Krupp gun - 108 Krupp M02s were converted in 1933 to the Bofors M 02/33.

"The 7,5cm Kanon m/02-33 was a decent improvement of the old 7,5cm Kanon m/02. On a completely new lavette (some sources seem to indicate that this was the same lavette as the 7,5cm Kanon m/40) the elevation was improved to 43° and the traverse to 50°. The increased elevation allowed for the range to increase to 10 000 meters. Some of the guns (no source I have indicate how many) had rubber rim steel wheels instead of the old spoked wood wheels, to make them suitable for high-speed motor towing. The new lavette made the gun heavy though, almost too heavy for the standard horse set used by the Swedish artillery to move their guns."

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=164193

Barrel - L/27

Projectile weight - 6.6 kg

Muzzle Velocity: 496 m/s

Max elevation: 43°
Range: 10 000 m
Traverse: 50°
Gun weight in action: 1 400 kg

A very similar carriage was used on the later 75mm Bofors M 40 gun.

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 25th of October 2012 02:04:34 PM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 25th of October 2012 02:05:10 PM

Israel used the 75mm Krupp gun - we're getting far away from WW1 but the gun was still going.....

The state of Israel was created by the UN in 1948 - the new state immediately was at war with the surrounding Arab states. A priority was to acquire any weaponry which

would allow the Israeli Army to hold off the Arab armies. Israel acquired 50 75mm Krupp guns with 80,000 rounds. It isn't entirely clear where the guns came from

but there is a reasonable case that Switzerland sold some of their remaining 75mm Krupp guns.  The trails of the guns appear to have been modified compared to the

original gun - the rear of the trail was widened without the sheet metal on the the top and bottom of the trail. This modification may have allowed a small increase in

maximum elevation.

The Israeli guns were modified for vehicle towing by replacing the wooden wheels with rubber tired wheels from 25 Pounder guns. The smaller diameter wheels required 

mounting arms to be welded onto the original axles to maintain the same contact point. the Krupp guns served throughout the 1948 War of Independence and eventually

were used for training in the 1950s. A number of the Krupp guns have been preserved as monuments throughout Israel.

The Israelis acquired de-milled M4 Sherman tanks from dumps in Italy. In 1949, 6 of these tanks were armed with 75mm Krupp guns. However, there were difficulties

in adapting the gun sights and the conversion wasn't very successful. 

The image of the breech markings is from a fairly battered survivor at the Yad Mordecai Museum - thanks to Ilan, the curator, for the images.

Regards,

Charlie

Some corrections/additions to the post about Turkish guns:

The 1911 order was for 12 horse and 10 field batteries (88 guns). These data are sure, since the come from the Krupp Archives, quoted by Fahri Türk (a) and are confirmed by (c).

As for the Brazlian guns, they were 40, according with Zdenek Jindra, who found the information in Krupp Archive too. 

According with a Turkish General Staff work, Turkey received 54 - 75mm Krupp guns in 1914, and I think that the number is correct, since that book is usually accurate (the data I could check are always correct). Probably Germany added another 14 guns, probably Brazilian, since I don't know of any other 75mm gun at hand in the Krupp factory in 1914.

To the list 3 more guns should be added:

1898: 1 - 75mm L/30 field gun

I'll post the data soon.

1912: 1 - 75mm L/30 a/a gun

http://www.bulgarianartillery.it/Bulgarian%20Artillery%201/Krupp%2075mm%20L30%201912%20Bak.htm

1912: 1 - 75mm L/28 a/a gun

http://www.bulgarianartillery.it/Bulgarian%20Artillery%201/Krupp%2075mm%20L28%201912%20Bak.htm

(a) TÜRK. Fahri : Die deutsche Rüstungsindustrie in ihren Türkeigeschäften zwischen 1871 und 1914. Die Firma Krupp, die Waffenfabrik Mauser und die Deutschen Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken. Ein Beitrag zu deutsch-türkischen Beziehungen. Frankfurt am Main : Peter Lang 2007, p. 166.

(b) JINDRA. Zdenek : Die Rolle des Krupp-Konzerns bei der wirtschaftlichen Vorbereitung des Erstern Weltrkriege. Jahrbuch für Wirtschafts-geschichte 1976/1, pp. 155.

(c) GENELKURMAY HARP TARH BAKANLII : Türk Silâlhi Kuvvetleri Tarihi III Cilt, 6 Kisim (1908-1920) Ankara : Basimevi 1971