Landships II

Paul Bonnett · Hero

Identification needed ?

28juni14 · Hero

They appear to be Bulgarian.

Albert · Brigadier

28juni14 wrote:
They appear to be Bulgarian.

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Now it would be good to know which year was this photo taken. During or after WW1? Almost nothing is known about Bulgarian approach to tanks. They certainly did not have any, although probably there were people who wanted to buy some captured tanks from Germans (just like in Austria-Hungary). But if this photo really shows Bulgarians and is from WW1, then at least we'd know that Bulgarians had some contact with dummy tanks and maybe practiced some anti-tank tactics.

cpljimmy · Sergeant

I dont think it's a real tank, I think it's kluged up out of wood and canvas. I don't think the tracks would be able to move anything across a rough field.

Just my .02 worth.

Jim

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Albert · Brigadier

cpljimmy wrote:
I dont think it's a real tank, I think it's kluged up out of wood and canvas. I don't think the tracks would be able to move anything across a rough field.
Just my .02 worth.
Jim
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Of course it's not a real tank, it's a dummy tank, but the photo is still interesting and mysterious.

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MK1 Nut · Hero

I would go with the tank target idea, as all the weak points are painted white with bullet marks to show some success. As the Russian White army had tanks supplied by us, could this be Red army? It does represent in target terms a MKV quite well.

James H · Legend

The caps and tunics are similar, but I think these gents are Russian, rather than Bulgarian. Must be something to do with post-WWI anti-tank training. But are they Red or White? Reds would train to take on British tanks in White hands, one assumes, but theses men have a White air about them, i.m.o.

Rectalgia · Legend

James H wrote:
... but theses men have a White air about them, i.m.o.

�Must be the "swagger" sticks, adding to that impression.

cpljimmy · Sergeant

Albert wrote:
cpljimmy wrote:
I dont think it's a real tank, I think it's kluged up out of wood and canvas. I don't think the tracks would be able to move anything across a rough field.
Just my .02 worth.
Jim
�
I know its a mock up, the fabricator in me want's to know why go to all that effort. I also know it was a hundred years ago. That's all
Jim
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Of course it's not a real tank, it's a dummy tank, but the photo is still interesting and mysterious.
�

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Paul Bonnett · Hero

Bulgaria, and its 1918

http://www.lostbulgaria.com/?p=4632

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Albert · Brigadier

Paul Bonnett wrote:
Bulgaria, and its 1918
http://www.lostbulgaria.com/?p=4632
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Great! Now we are sure. The photo is very interesting, because it proves that Bulgarians practiced anti-tank tactics, although they never met enemy tanks in battle during WW1.

Albert · Brigadier

James H wrote:
Well, I'm deeply embarrassed. I very carefully studied the tunics, buttons, pockets, caps, and cockades, and decided they must be Russians. I looked at the shape of the cockades in particular, and also thought the caps looked very Russian with their large crowns and small peaks. I'd always thought Bulgarian uniforms were much more German-influenced. So my credibility is eroded still further. Looking elsewhere on that excellent site, the uniforms remind me of the illustrations in the Funckens' book, so I should have known.
Anyway, it's a great site, and so far I've spotted an armoured car in Bulgarian hands. The challenge now is to find out the story behind the dummy.

Don't worry, for example I�am almost completely not interested in uniforms, weapons is what I like. That's why I was waiting for 100% confirmation on what nationality these soldiers are, I didn't even try to identify them wink

Yes, Bulgarians had probably only one armoured car - Austin captured from Russians in 1916. It was the first�Bulgarian AFV in history. However it was�not used by them in battle. Scrapped in 1930s. Bulgarians certainly had no tanks during WW1, in 1934 they bought some Italian tankettes and those were their first AFVs excluding this sole Austin! I am also almost sure that during WW1�Bulgarians had no armoured trains. So this Austin was the only Bulgarian AFV of WW1.

The photo must have been taken during some anti-tank training. German dummy tanks of WW1 are a known subject, but it's the first time I see a Bulgarian dummy. The photo is a proof that anti-tank trainings were done also in armies which eventually did not have to fight against tanks�during WW1. Other example is Russian army and probably US Army (I know�that US Army�adopted provisional�British instructions on anti-tank defence from February 1918, however I don't know anything whether there were any trainings and if any dummies were built).

-- Edited by Albert on Sunday 17th of February 2013 12:57:26 AM

James H · Legend

Well, I'm deeply embarrassed. I very carefully studied the tunics, buttons, pockets, caps, and cockades, and decided they must be Russians. I looked at the shape of the cockades in particular, and also thought the caps looked very Russian with their large crowns and small peaks. I'd always thought Bulgarian uniforms were much more German-influenced. So my credibility is eroded still further. Looking elsewhere on that excellent site, the uniforms remind me of the illustrations in the Funckens' book, so I should have known.

Anyway, it's a great site, and so far I've spotted an armoured car in Bulgarian hands. The challenge now is to find out the story behind the dummy.

James H · Legend

A theory:

On the splendid http://www.lostbulgaria.com there are several photos of Bulgarian, German, and Austro-Hungarian troops and officers together. That is to be expected, since the three armies did link up during the campaigns of 1915. But in a couple of shots there's a hotel sign that reads "Trient". I don't think it's referring to the Swiss Trient, which is on Switzerland's western border with France; it appears to be the Italian town of Trento, which in German is Trient. It's in South Tyrol, which during the War was a hotly disputed part of Austria-Hungary, so public notices would have been in German. Bulgaria is a long way from there, and AFAIK no Bulgarian forces were sent to that area to fight. So I think several of the photos are of a courtesy visit, Bulgarians invited to inspect their German and A-H allies.

Looking at the photo of the dummy tank, I wonder why the Bulgarians are so well-turned-out. They look very smart, and not at all like men who have just been having a bit of target practice. Could it be that the dummy is German, and the Bulgarians have been invited to pose in front of it? Any thoughts/arguments/public ridicule welcome.

Update: just noticed there's a thing you can click on that translates all the captions into English. The discovery that my speculation is more or less correct and that the location was South Tyrol only partially offsets this new embarrassment. But still - any takers for the idea that the dummy is German?

-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 19th of February 2013 03:29:45 PM