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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> References -> Dr Banting and a Captured MG08 - Amateur Historians Help Please
Post Info TOPIC: Dr Banting and a Captured MG08 - Amateur Historians Help Please
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Legend

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Dr Banting and a Captured MG08 - Amateur Historians Help Please
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Dr Banting, the Nobel prize-winning doctor who was the first to use insulin on humans, was a doctor in WW1 and helped out at the Battle of Cambrai (fought in 1918, according to Wikipedia), as well as many other occasions I'm sure, for which service he was decorated. He was from Alliston, Ontario.

There is an MG08 in Alliston, Ontario, with a little sign on it that says an unarmed Dr Banting and his similarly unarmed orderly captured it along with a group of Germans. Dr Banting then carried the MG in, and after the war donated it to the local school he had attended.

I also have a record that shows that MG08 number 822 was allotted to Alliston (along with a piece of ordnance, #1110, identified as a mortar by a local who attended the school, and only as "Austrian" in the record, although that may be a transcription error) sometime around 1920. MG08 #822 was captured by 4 Div, 44 Batt. on the 27th September, 1918, in the vicinity of Canal-du-Nord, N.E. of MŒUVRES.

What are the chances of there being two MG08s in Alliston; the official allocation, and Dr Banting's? Slim, I'd say.

The Dr Banting story sounds like tosh.

But if I cannot find a number on the MG08, I don't think I can discount it, as unlikely as it sounds.

Please see this thread: http://landships.activeboard.com/t57922329/id-number-on-an-mg08/

And this: http://calendar.county.simcoe.on.ca/partners/new%20tec%20library/banting/database/000147e.html



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Ironsides


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According to the Montreal Gazette he was wounded in france in 1919 at Cambrai? and invalided home... hmmm

A number of news items from 1941...

The Montreal Gazette

Ottawa Citizen

He was with the 4th Battalion when the MG was captured in 1918 according to The Ottawa journal the gun stands in front of the school in Alliston.

Wounded at Cambrai 1918:

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1923/banting-bio.html

"Frederick Banting graduated from medical school in 1916 while the First World War was raging in Europe. He was anxious to take part in the war effort but was rejected twice because of poor eyesight. Undaunted, he tried again and was accepted into the Canadian Army Medical Corps. He left for France the next year and served first as a medical officer in the Amiens-Arras sector and later as medical officer with the 4th Canadian Division near Cambrai. In late September 1918, just weeks before Armistice, he was wounded in the right arm by an exploding German shell. Nonetheless, he continued treating other wounded patients. For his bravery and determination under fire, he was awarded the Military Cross."

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/physicians/030002-2000-e.html

I cant say if Sir Frederick did or did not capture the gun, but can think of a number of scenarios in which such an event could occur in late 1918 by an "unarmed" medical officer so I would in fact except the story pretty much on faith, the apparent appearance of a second gun could be coincidence or could be one and the same gun... again its possible that this gun was awarded to Alliston simply because it was captured by a resident or perhaps on a request...whatever the outcome the story has been known since at least the time of his death in 1941wink






-- Edited by Ironsides on Friday 27th of June 2014 11:37:55 AM

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He was with 4 Div ? This gun was captured by 4 Div.

Maybe he did capture it.

I have read that in late 1918, many Germans surrendered to anybody who would accept their surrender. The prisoners could have carried the gun in.

That's a great help, Ironsides, thank you.

I bet you can't find any old photos of Alliston Union Public School that show the two pieces of ordnance in front of the school smile



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Ironsides


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I can find pics of the old building which I think was demolished in the late 60s but too small to be of any use, perhaps they were moved elsewhere at that time? Sir Frederick aparantly went to this school so there's the connection...

http://www.simcoe.com/community-story/1995945-they-don-t-make-schools-like-this-anymore/

http://sharingsimcoe.com/2014/06/19/alliston-union-celebrating-a-rich-history/

Note the present school of the same name is not the original location,which was on Albert street.wink

Apparantly a memorial was set up at the front of the school in 1921 but makes no mention of weapons only a plaque, in honour of those who served in the war.

http://www.ourroots.ca/e/page.aspx?id=3728841

It could be that since Sir Fredericks name would likely be on the plaque.... and later made famous for his work, that it may end up being associated with the weapons in this case the MG....

smile








-- Edited by Ironsides on Friday 27th of June 2014 04:30:50 PM

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Lothianman


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Oxford Dictionary of National Biography say he was awarded the MC for exceptional bravery under fire at Cambrai in Sept 1918 - wounded and it was thought for some time he would lose his right arm. "The war over, he returned to Canada ...". ODNB is pretty reliable though by no means 100% accurate in my experience.

The entry includes the refs "M. Bliss, The discovery of insulin (1982) · M. Bliss, Banting: a biography (1984) · M. Bliss, ‘Re-writing medical history: Charles Best and the Banting and Best myth’, Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, 48 (1993), 253–74".

Prof Michael Bliss retired some years ago from the University of Toronto, and I have no idea if he is still active in the field, but it might be worth a brief and polite email to him c/o the administrator at the Dept of History asking if the MG story is true to his knowledge. It may interest him!

But obviously do check what books you can first. Bantting: a biog is on Google Books (in part) - a first trial of a few keywords found no menton of the m/g story. But do check for yourself.



-- Edited by Lothianman on Friday 27th of June 2014 01:08:28 PM

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Ironsides


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It turns out there was a plaque erected for the then Dr Banting at the school in 1924 according to "A Brief history of Alliston"wink



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