Landships II

Tonys · Field Marshal

WEATHERING OF TRACKS

PDA · Legend

I agree with you. The latest trick I'm trying with tracks is painting them a dark gun metal and then giving them washes of grotty dirt; Citadel's Devlan Mud is giving some good results. I think how I arrived at that combination is seeing the tracks of the tanks in Bovington painted black, and reasoning that even if the tracks were rusty they would have been smeared with mud or whatever the tank was driving through, obscuring any rust. I wouldn't be at all surprised, however, if the tracks of the Gaza tanks were nice and shiny, polished by the sand.

If the tanks had been sent out with raw steel tracks then I can imagine them rusting on the ferry crossing. But the crews would surely have quickly cleaned that off. If the tracks were painted (and I think they were) I can see that the paint would have worn off and if the tank was left standing for a few hours, a few blossoms of rust may have appeared. These rust blooms would be imperceptible in 1/72 and in any case would have been scraped off as soon as the tank moved.

Years ago, Peter Kempf said that many people overdo the rust on WW1 tanks, pointing out that tanks were cutting edge, or even futuristic, weapons of war kept in tiptop condition.

Plastic Fan has done some of the best weathering I've seen, giving his tracks the look of being driven over chalk downlands, such as those in the vicinity of Cambrai.

And the latest from CrashandBern shows the tracks painted in the same shade of brown as the rest of the tank. And that seems rather logical to me, as well as looking good.

compound eye · Colonel

For me, it just seems to follow, that WW1 tracks probably had a similar buffed & dusty / caked look to many modern dozer plate tracks. Also, for some reason, the weathering many people put on their Char B1 Bis tracks seems to be similar to that, and a lot more realistic / sympathetic, than the APG / JCB Graveyard look a lot of people go for.

CrashandBern · Field Marshal

I'm inclined to agree, the only pictures I've ever seen of combat tanks with genuinely rusty tracks were T-34's during the battle of Berlin where they were either in constant combat or knocked out.

I've always struggled with track colour so covering them with mud has been a favorite (umber, burnt umber and burnt sienna oil paint stippled on with a cut off brush works well for this if you want the wet mud look).
Recently I've been experimenting with ground pastels mixed with white glue which give a good compacted dried mud look but something I have noticed is that it can also look a lot like heavy rust which is what we may be seeing on other peoples models... I guess if you keep away from the more orangey browns there's less chance of it being mistaken for rust.

d_fernetti · Hero

I agree on the general views expressed... the tracks must have been caked with soil, and might even have showed bright metallic spots due to the constant friction with the ground, especially in dry terrain, like that on Palestine.
On the factory finish, here's my theory: for storage and preservation purposes, it's probable that the track shoes were "Japanned" a sort of chemical blackening that was in use by the early XXth century. It was used on every piece of steel on British airplanes, so perhaps the tracks had a similar treatment to protect them from rust and keep them stable during storage.

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

Couldn't agree more! The same applies to any armoured vehicle model, from any era! Except for one that's been knocked out & left for months, there's far too much rust applied everywhere! Full marks for modelling skills & all that, but very much OTT on the weathering front.
Same goes for the amount of mud/earth, unless the vehicle's on, or just come off the battlefield, you can bet your bottom dollar that the commander would have got the crew to wash it down & lubricate.
I've not done any WW1 armour (Except the Airfix tank, many, many years ago) but on the WW2 side, I tend to undercoat black, drybrush GW's "Tinbitz" then light drybrush with gunmetal.

Tonys · Field Marshal

PDA,

The grey scratched finish would seem to be about the best, but I'm going to start of with one of the Alclad II paints -probably steel - and then "do the dirty" on them. Perhaps an aluminium colour might give a more pleasant effect as steel from 70 feet away (1/35th scale) would not be bright at all. Might have to experiment with several different metallic paints to get a reasonably scaled colour similar to the dozer blade.

At this stage, I'm waiting for the resin machine guns and 6 pdrs to come back after being cast from my masters before finishing the tanks. As an aside, the Hotchkiss machine guns from the Takom St Chamond are magnificent and takes very little work to change one of them to the British Hotchkiss for casting.

Tony.

Tonys · Field Marshal

Further to CharlieC's comments regarding the case-hardening of the tracks through carburisation, I came across this statement on learning about the process:

"The resulting case hardened part may show distinct surface discoloration. The steel darkens significantly, and shows a mottled pattern of black, blue and purple, caused by the various compounds formed from impurities in the bone and charcoal."

Looking at a colour picture of a Mk IV taken in late 1917 to 1918, the track does appear darker than ordinary steel. However, this could also be the angle of the light.

I attach the colour photo (NOT a B&W photo later coloured) as the example for the comments above; a small piece of rust is seen on the one track, but generally the track sides seem to be pretty grey.

Any comments?

Tony

rkpost · Major

Hello,

I find this topic extremely interesting. I have been using WEM's Track Primer color as the basis of my track plate color. Afterwards, I mix Humbrol Steel 50% to the WEM color 50% for a top coat. Afterwards I wash with oils and then add steel highlights. Finally - I add Humbrol Matt Aluminum for the highest points. This is my Panzershop 1/35th Mark II. Must say that I based the sponson camouflage pattern on Diorama1914's EXCELLENT 1/72nd example posted earlier.

Will most definitely try some purple and the other colors on my next model.

Thanks for the Mark IV color photo - a really good reference.

Rob

d_fernetti · Hero

Nice track paint job, I must try that! BTW I think that the purple would be barely visible in scale, being more of a cast in a generally dark metallic colour. If the tank is portrayed as weathered, I would say that the purple would be obscured by the mud and filth of the ground...

Tonys · Field Marshal

The "muck" on the track would have to tie in with the area portrayed. For example, if you were doing a Mk I in the Somme, ANY track colour would do if you wanted to cover the thing with all the mud around - but what colour was the mud? A look at the attached picture of a Mk I shows very little mud!!

In a dry-ish environment, such as Cambrai, photos show little earth sticking to the tracks. The logical place to find earth (as opposed to mud) would be just in front of the raised lip; behind it there would be very little because of the distance between the two track plates varying as the track goes around a bend. A small amount could be considered to be present on the tracks from ground pressure, but the shaking of the tracks as they passed over the rollers would throw all loose stuff off.

I attach two photos showing E Bn Mk IV tanks knocked out in Cambrai.

Tony

d_fernetti · Hero

Too true, but even in a dry enviroment the tracks seem to pick up a notable quantity of dirt up and around every part of the tank, and one can be rather confident that the track themselves would take much soil with them as they rool over any unpaved terrain.
Now, what was the predominant hue of earth on the battlefields? Light brown, with lots of chalk, or dark brown, like rich agricultural soils? Perhaps a reddish brown, if the terrain had clay in it? Never been in Europe myself, so it's hard to tell!

Tonys · Field Marshal

According to what I have found, the land is as follows:
"The Somme lends its name to the major British battle which began here on 1st July 1916, partly to divert German attention away from Verdun. It is an area of plateaus, rolling hills and wheat fields, not as some imagine a flat muddy plain near to the Somme River. In fact the name refers to the French Department of the Somme and not the River. The British troops were rarely even near to the river. The soil appears a rich brown colour and has lumps of grey glassy flint through it. Where drains are dug, white lumps of chalk are brought to the surface. The white chalk would have made any trench lines or shell craters highly visible. The highway seems to follow a plateau and there is a gradual slope all the way from Bullecourt to Albert. It is a bucolic scene of red brick villages with tall church bell towers, green fields, clumps of trees and brown cultivation."

This is taken from http://www.anzacbattlefields.com/somme.htm

Tony

CrashandBern · Field Marshal

Pictures of knocked out tanks may not be the best way to determine how much soil gets compacted into their tracks, you need to bear in mind that very few of those picture would have been taken at the time the tank was knocked out. Most would have been taken weeks or months after the battle by which time wind and rain would have washed a good deal of it away.
Interestingly the picture of Eclipse II shows quite a lot of mud still deposited on the top track run and on the top of the sponsons.

Too be honest I don't think there can be any hard and fast rules governing how much dirt stuck to tracks apart from on hard dry surface there would be less and on a wet loose surface there would be more.

PDA · Legend

CrashandBern wrote:
Pictures of knocked out tanks may not be the best way to determine how much soil gets compacted into their tracks,

That's where movies have the advantage over stills. Just look at the amount of crud on this Mark IV, not just on the tracks but also on the sponson roof (from about 48 seconds): http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675027524_British-officers_tractors-in-field_soldiers-on-tractors_soldiers-near-a-tank

TinCanTadpole · Legend

There are some stills that are useful, because the presence of crewmen can indicate that the tank is just 'paused' in the middle of use. There are photos of Mk Is said to be on 15th September 1916, where the tanks are obviously in use (even if taking a break at that moment) and the ground is pretty dry. in these cases the tracks are generally just dusty, with very little dirt clinging to the plates - just a little perhaps in the crease of the "toblerone" and where it overlaps the next link.

As for soil colour, I have no idea about Flanders, but the Somme region is said to have light coloured soil - I suspect it may be similar to the soil seen in some pics of tank demonstrations at Saumur, which is a sandier shade of brown where dry, with a slightly darker (but still medium-light) and richer tan colour where tank tracks have churned it.

Incidentally, looking at a book pic of a modern Leclerc MBT on a training ex, the wide variety of colour of the French soil is very apparent, even in the length of a strip of path just two tank-lengths long: the driest parts of soil are best described as "dark sand", the relatively dry parts are a relatively light brown, which I would say is like tan, being richer in tone than the palest soil; this mid-tone is similar to the colour photo of a Mk IV posted somewhere above, and if it is widespread in France, it might explain the shade of khaki-brown chosen. Finally, the properly wet parts of this same area of soil are brown - not the darkest brown, but a typical soil brown.

d_fernetti · Hero

This footage is great! And check that the tank here (which has spuds) rolls by a soldier on the right of the frame that seems to be possesed by the same curiosity about mud than we do...
He touches a bit of "mud" from one of the passing spuds on the tracks (there seems to be a healthy dose of it on each) and quickly discovers that perhaps it's not a good idea (or that the "mud" was in fact a dog turd?) and he wipes his hand over the tank sidewall, and moments later -as the tank drives by slowly- on the sponson as well!

I find these things hilarious, sorry!

PDA · Legend

d_fernetti wrote:
I find these things hilarious, sorry!

Me too. There is a film where a bunch of tankers jump off a tank and one of them falls over. Captured on celluloid for nearly 100 years!

d_fernetti · Hero

first "FAIL" video ever!

Tonys · Field Marshal

The ones of Cambrai were taken pretty soon after the battle, but the point is made.

While there is mud on some of the tracks, the shiny lip shows that at least there, no rust is present.

It's funny how a picture gets built up in the mind of the Somme being a black quagmire as a result of B & W photos!

Paul Bonnett · Hero

This would be more of a black quagmire when rain had fallen for a day or two
www.anzacbattlefields.com/Passchendaele/passch1.htm
Paul

ph0t0art · Sergeant

How common was it for tanks to tow artillery pieces? I noted in the film it was towing one.