Landships II

Peter T · General

Strange vehicle

baldwin · Hero

It looks like the German "trench digger"

kieffer · Commander in Chief

I think so, it's a Schuetzengrabenbagger, saw pictures before but alas I forgot where.

Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

There was some discussion in Josh's topic - http://landships.activeboard.com/t41049833/im-going-for-the-gold/ but doesn't look like anything there.

Peter T · General

My first impression: A power shovel without its boom.

But you are right, on the back of the postcard you can read "Sch�tzengrabenbagger".

Is it WWI or WWII?

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Peter

PDA · Legend

See attached

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Fascinating. Never seen before. Some guessing:

a) we are in Germany - see little boy with sailor's suit behind vehicle.

b) it's not WW1, but the 1920ies - first excavators on tracked chassis by German companies date from this time.

c) it's not the Rhineland, but somewhere in the east - Silesia comes to mind.

Tried to read the word below 'Sch�tzengrabenbagger' (which nevertheless may be true, as this may have been the intention, e.g. during 3rd Silesian Uprising 1921) - it's 'A??echer', may be 'Amecher' or 'An?echer'. However, can't find a location that fits. Name?

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-- Edited by mad zeppelin on Friday 9th of December 2011 07:53:23 PM

Peter T · General

Thanks gents

Hi Mad zeppelin - hoped you will log in

Well, I know most of the A7V Trench Digger pics. The "Grabenbagger" was built with some track components of the A7V lorry. There are some good informations in the Strasheim books on the A7V.

But this is a completely different vehicle - I've never seen before.

Caption says: Bagger/Schlepper/Belgien/Frankreich 1.WK

Cheers, Peter

-- Edited by Peter T on Friday 9th of December 2011 07:58:31 PM

Rectalgia · Legend

Hi Peter, I've e-mailed you another picture of an A7V trenchdigger in the offchance you haven't seen it before. Someone else's copyright so I can't post it here. Anyway, look out for an e-mail from Steve Sheen, Australian service provider and a 614k .png attachment.

CharlieC · Legend

�

Huh?�

A WW1 image still protected by copyright? - I don't think so. Copyright only exists for a finite period of time - it varies a bit between different countries. For an image the copyright belongs to the creator of the image or to whoever the image is sold to and the copyright transferred.

Using an out of copyright image in a work does not "restart" the copyright of the original image although the text and any new images may be copyrighted.

Regards,

Charlie

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Rectalgia · Legend

Hi Charlie,

Well, the Tankograd article it came from was copyright (and I don't recall the issue number etc. - in fact had to perform some surgery on my e-mail account even to get to the email I sent Josh that mentioned the source as Tankograd, evidently I'm pushing my account storage limits) - plus the image was attributed to a private collection.

I've no idea if there are other sources for it and whether it might be construed to be in the public domain. I don't think its age comes into it - I think prior publication comes into it, similar to "prior art" with intellectual property. I could be wrong but take the view that somebody seems to own it (in the absence of the obligatory dilligent search to establish the facts otherwise) and making free with it might compromise any earning capacity from it, to which a supposed owner might have the right and expectation.

Someone here may be able to point to the on-line Tankograd issue and any link to it, in the meantime I'm happy to send a copy to anyone interested - but I'm not relaxed about "publishing" it here.� Unless you're sure about it being OK.� Yeah, I know I'm a right royal PITA (what's my forum name again biggrin ).

Steve

Roger Todd · Legend

Copyright in an image created before 1989 is covered by the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988, and applies for '...70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies.'

Thus, a photograph taken by someone who died on any day in 1941 is still within copyright until 1 January 2012; if they died any time after 1941, obviously the copyright period extends correspondingly.

If rectalgia says he can't share the photograph because it is still within copyright (or he may be using the term informally and whoever shared the photo with him simply does not wish it spread about), then I think we must respect his statement and accept it graciously.

EDIT

Hah! I see rectalgia's responded while I was typing my reply. Anything published in a journal/book etc. is copyright of the publisher; that's why we're not legally able to simply take a magazine/book, scan in every page and freely email it to each other or put it on the internet without permission; it's why even for, say, educational purposes a teacher/lecturer in a school/college cannot simply save money by buying one copy of a textbook and photocopy it for all their students (they can, however, photocopy small portions, but even then only for educational purposes and for reasonable numbers of students).

-- Edited by Roger Todd on Saturday 10th of December 2011 09:34:48 AM

Pat · Commander in Chief

Could the place's name be some sloppy spelling of Aachen?

Peter, I suppose the shield on the building to the right is not legible, is it?

Tankcommander · Colonel

Hi,

I follow the first impression of Peter T, there is something "missing" at the vehicle.

If You look on first picture, I think to see a "cable roll" inside the vehicle(don't know the English name).

Buildings seems to me like something "Belgium" or "Northern France".

Think it is a civilian vehicle, after war.

DJ

Rectalgia · Legend

Rectalgia wrote:
Someone here may be able to point to the on-line Tankograd issue and any link to it, ...

�Ah, the link was in that other topic I posted to, a book review by Tom Cromwell at armorama.kitmaker.net of Tankograd's Sturmpanzer A7V, First of the Panzers ISBN 978=3-936519-11-2� - extracting the specific image link: http://armorama.kitmaker.net/photos/review/5064/02.jpg

Now everyone can see it.

The picture I sent to Peter is a zoom-in on the picture detail of that - to 994x686 pixels with a little image sharpening and brightness-contrast-mid tone tweaking.

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Saturday 10th of December 2011 01:03:16 PM

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Okay, the word written below 'Sch�tzengrabenbagger' is not a location but a name. So, that really won't help us.

It's 'Annechen' or 'Anniechen', a female name, most probably designating the person for whom the copy was meant.

Peter T · General

Tankcommander wrote:
Buildings seems to me like something "Belgium" or "Northern France".
Think it is a civilian vehicle, after war.
DJ

To me it looks like "Northern France" too. And I have also the impression, that it could be a civilian vehicle ...an excavator without its boom in military service.

What confuses me is Mad Zeppelins remark: "first excavators on tracked chassis by German companies date from this time"

Peter

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Mh, I know sailor's suits for children were popular in Germany because of Tirpitz and the propaganda for the High Seas Fleet - and the phenomen carried on until the 1930ies (because existing suits had to be worn up). - Was there any other European country to pick up this peculiarity?

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Mad zeppelin, here's a photo of a Panther being used after WWII as a crane, a bit off topic but interesting to most of us. �I wonder when the photo was taken and what happened to it?

Rectalgia · Legend

Well, I suppose we need to list the visible features and try to analyse function from there.

Looks like a substantial winding drum visible through the opening in the cabin. Operator's position presumably behind one of the screened windows, left or right side, presumably also windows designate the "front" of the cabin. The cabin may be fixed (not much clearance from the chassis if it is not). The cabin roof is not pierced for cable or boom. Unknown and substantial and presumably incomplete assembly where the gentleman with cavalry boots is sitting.

A light A frame folded down on the roof, diagonal bracing on the outside of the cabin seems to go with that, also a small pulley (could be) near centre of roof at front. Not at all substantial that part of it, presumably some sort of auxilliary function like rear boom raising and lowering.

It looks like a fairly light outrigger power shaft, mountings attached to the chassis, running towards the rear (but not going all the way). There is a chute through the cabin, over the rear of the shaft. Side windows in the front cabin area allow reasonable visibility towards that area, possibly indicating a matching unit on the other side since the windows are both sides. That would be consistent with discharge conveyors for excavated material.

Could be provision for a spar or shaft, low-down at the rear of the cabin, through a port centrally-located with brackets and pins adjacent either side of the rear cabin. There is a narrow slot over the top of the chassis, below this. There is a large opening in the cabin above all of this, now closed-off in a jury-rigged manner. These features could be consistent with a rear-mounted buckets and chain assembly, emptying over the side chute(s) but surprisingly compact if so. (But remembering excessive height WAS a battle-field problem with some known diggers.)

Beneath it all is a heavy fixed member, centrally coming off the chassis, slightly flanged and centrally bored. There is a port in the matching position at the front of the machine, in a boxed section, but it appears to be smaller diameter (not designed to be ganged then).

The writing on the card says Sch�tzengraben bagger - trench digger - no need to doubt that authority and I think we can see this machine probably functions similarly to the (slightly) better-known A7V German type (though I'm not sure if any two of those was built exactly the same) and similarly to the French type but all the parts for such function are missing. It is clear it would have been a real challenge to operate (the business end, seemingly at the rear, is not visible to the operator) but they were all probably like that to some degree, needing more than a single operator/observer to manage them. I have seen pictures of a (or the) French type but it was much smaller, I think (vaguely).

kieffer · Commander in Chief

mad zeppelin wrote:
Mh, I know sailor's suits for children were popular in Germany because of Tirpitz and the propaganda for the High Seas Fleet - and the phenomen carried on until the 1930ies (because existing suits had to be worn up). - Was there any other European country to pick up this peculiarity?

�I guess so, and not only sailors suits. Many postcards and family pictures of little children show sailor suits as army items too, the latter merely for just one occasion or photograph. Sailor suits were popular boys wear I think in every European country having a navy.

Tankcommander · Colonel

I thinks it is something like that, maybe an earlier type. Both pictures are WW2 (Treblinka)

DJ

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kieffer · Commander in Chief

there's some fabrication shield on the side of the frame, but I presume it's not possible to zoom in any closer on that?

The writing underneath 'Grabenbagger' on the back of the picture: Amerika? or am I going to wild here? Though, the last character seems more 'er' like the 'er' behind bagger.

-- Edited by kieffer on Monday 12th of December 2011 08:48:50 AM

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

LincolnTanker wrote:
Hi Mad zeppelin, here's a photo of a Panther being used after WWII as a crane, a bit off topic but interesting to most of us. �I wonder when the photo was taken and what happened to it?

�

If your question refers to the Panther, it's the Bergepanther, now on display at Saumur.

�

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Thanks Adam,� it's good to know it survived it's duty as a crane!

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

The pictures belong to a series of photgraphs sold on Ebay last weekend; quite a lot of them had the inscription 'Anichen/Annechen'. - They all showed tanks etc. in Northern France and Belgium in April 1918 (Georgette-Offensive).

So, there's a chance that the 'strange vehicle' was photographed at the same occasion - which would it make an English/Entente machine captured by the Germans. - There were no comparable German machines at that time. The first tracked excavator of Weserh�tte dates from 1926.

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